I've only grown to like the game more with time, really a fantastic game

yeah the design is just top notch in every aspect

i love how the girls compliment each other when preparing the game, it's so cute

I think one aspect that isn't top notch is the level design honestly

like they went all-out with the visuals but some of the actual level layouts are just poorly designed (hanamura i'm looking at you)

I actually don't mind any of the levels all that much

I think one aspect that isn't top notch is the level design honestly

like they went all-out with the visuals but some of the actual level layouts are just poorly designed (hanamura i'm looking at you)

Some of the levels are not only visually busy, some chokes are just horrendous.

The chokes are the number 1 issue imo, early TF2 maps were almost as bad but Valve realised that it didn't work. You'd think a game that openly claims to be inspired by TF2 would realise that too.

>overwatch

>choke points

????????
Literally every fucking map has like a million flanks, especially for mobile characters. Even the one or two chokes that are unavoidable only need to be stayed in for an instant before you can escape them to a side route, and there are a billion ways to do that completely safely. The map design's some of the best I've ever seen in a multiplayer shooter, nothing like TF2 where the only map I could bear playing after a while was Gravelpit.

In fact it's so easy to get around choke points and attack in general that it's really too bad for defending teams. If a game's evenly matched the attackers will always win because they have a huge advantage.

I find Overwatch to be a pretty well balanced game overall. I think for the most part the better team will always prevail.

I find Overwatch to be a pretty well balanced game overall. I think for the most part the better team will always prevail.

It's definitely pretty well balanced at this point, but there is a big discrepancy on attack/defend maps, a bit moreso for straight capture point ones rather than payload ones. A single won teamfight means that a point will get taken, and there's a lot of time to play around with. The defending team can win a whole bunch of team fights and lose one and they'll lose the game over it, whereas the attacking team has multiple minutes worth of failed tries before one victory will do it for them. With a payload in mind there's a forced, lengthy travel time so the defending team has an actual chance to fight back if they get wiped and games will more than likely go down to the wire if the teams are evenly matched every time. With control points, if the attacking team has a Lucio or two and are even half organized they can win a teamfight on the first point, rush to the second, and win the game instantly. Even if they can't pull off the rush strat the second point has such an enormously generous timer on all of the 2CP maps that the defending team has nearly no chance if the teams are equally as good. They're going to lose a fight eventually.

if choke points are a problem for you git gud you need to co-operate with your team more/switch to a hero that can counter your situation. choke points aren't really a problem at all (map data shows that attacking/defending sides win pretty equally)

I find Overwatch to be a pretty well balanced game overall. I think for the most part the better team will always prevail.

It's definitely pretty well balanced at this point, but there is a big discrepancy on attack/defend maps, a bit moreso for straight capture point ones rather than payload ones. A single won teamfight means that a point will get taken, and there's a lot of time to play around with. The defending team can win a whole bunch of team fights and lose one and they'll lose the game over it, whereas the attacking team has multiple minutes worth of failed tries before one victory will do it for them. With a payload in mind there's a forced, lengthy travel time so the defending team has an actual chance to fight back if they get wiped and games will more than likely go down to the wire if the teams are evenly matched every time. With control points, if the attacking team has a Lucio or two and are even half organized they can win a teamfight on the first point, rush to the second, and win the game instantly. Even if they can't pull off the rush strat the second point has such an enormously generous timer on all of the 2CP maps that the defending team has nearly no chance if the teams are equally as good. They're going to lose a fight eventually.

the defending side has a huge advantage in spawn times, though. and map design tends to favour the defender. i think it's pretty well balanced.

The issues I'm talking about are more related to when both teams actually know what they're doing and are coordinated. The defending side will wind up with a natural cooperation advantage in an all solo queuer pub game, that's obvious. (This is what tends to skew the numbers.) However, an attacking team doing a stack will virtually undoubtedly win eventually just by making coordinated assaults, and the defending team has to be significantly better to overcome it.

This post was last modified: Jul 27, 2016 at 11:59 AM by Yrrzy.

>overwatch

>choke points

????????
Literally every fucking map has like a million flanks, especially for mobile characters. Even the one or two chokes that are unavoidable only need to be stayed in for an instant before you can escape them to a side route, and there are a billion ways to do that completely safely. The map design's some of the best I've ever seen in a multiplayer shooter, nothing like TF2 where the only map I could bear playing after a while was Gravelpit.

In fact it's so easy to get around choke points and attack in general that it's really too bad for defending teams. If a game's evenly matched the attackers will always win because they have a huge advantage.

this post baffles me greatly

hanamura first choke has a SINGLE flank that is ONLY accessible to flying/climbing classes
both exit straight into a large open area that can be covered from all around

maybe it's because I'm a level designer that I'm so critical of this but like

??????????


(also gravelpit is not a great map so im extra confused)

>overwatch

>choke points

????????
Literally every fucking map has like a million flanks, especially for mobile characters. Even the one or two chokes that are unavoidable only need to be stayed in for an instant before you can escape them to a side route, and there are a billion ways to do that completely safely. The map design's some of the best I've ever seen in a multiplayer shooter, nothing like TF2 where the only map I could bear playing after a while was Gravelpit.

In fact it's so easy to get around choke points and attack in general that it's really too bad for defending teams. If a game's evenly matched the attackers will always win because they have a huge advantage.

this post baffles me greatly

hanamura first choke has a SINGLE flank that is ONLY accessible to flying/climbing classes
both exit straight into a large open area that can be covered from all around

maybe it's because I'm a level designer that I'm so critical of this but like

??????????


(also gravelpit is not a great map so im extra confused)

people rightfully talk shit about hanamura's first choke but tbh temple of anubis's is way worse

This post was last modified: Jul 27, 2016 at 4:33 PM by Draku.

this post baffles me greatly

hanamura first choke has a SINGLE flank that is ONLY accessible to flying/climbing classes
both exit straight into a large open area that can be covered from all around

psst the window isn't the only way that some of those characters (the ones of which can make it to the window which make up like half the cast anyways) can get through, and yes, you have to use different characters, how shocking. (there's also the hilariously silly lucio route but that isn't exactly useful) whenever you get over there there's a back route you can easily make it to as a mobile character where the enemy team will have to break off and try to stop your flank, thus making it easier to get through the ground doorway as well.


hanamura's first choke never really stops anyone and the first point virtually always falls unless the attacking team is horrible. temple of anubis' first point tends to baffle pub teams but the flank access is placed right there so you only have to show your face into the choke for an instant and there's a ton of ways you can make it nearly 100% safely inside of that doorway, which leads to one of the most useful backdoors in the game that can land mobile characters behind the enemy point entirely, not to mention the normal side route it offers.

(also gravelpit is not a great map so im extra confused)

it isn't, but it doesn't give me a headache like the rest of tf2's maps, so it at least gets a mention for that.

This post was last modified: Jul 27, 2016 at 4:37 PM by Yrrzy.

I think the confusion here is assuming that level design flaws that a good team can overcome are therefore not flaws

I really like overwatch and there are a lot of things it does better than TF2, so I was excited to see how it handled its level design when it came out
But disappointingly it didn't learn from any of the 9 years of TF2 evolution and went straight back to "single chokes for combat" format TF2's launch maps suffered from (which of course good teams could overcome)

There's a couple maps with better design, like Gibraltar, which offers actual flanks that ground classes can use, and as a result has much more dynamic gameplay in each area

Well yes, I would say that if they're designed around the tons of protective and mobility abilities the game has to offer with the intent that teams have to work together to get past areas, they're not flawed. There's nothing like Goldrush or Dustbowl in TF2 and I thank the fucking heavens for that.

This post was last modified: Jul 27, 2016 at 4:59 PM by Yrrzy.

idk id wager working as a team to prevent another team pushing through a number of viable routes is more fun than working as a team to push through the single choke

but maybe at that point its personal preference

(i also think hanamura is absolutely as bad as dustbowl/goldrush)

hanamura is not that bad

This post was last modified: Jul 28, 2016 at 2:37 AM by Uniju.

Honestly I have to say I prefer Hanamura over Anubis at the very least, although I don't like A/D to begin with so.

When I first started playing Overwatch I also judged it to be super chokey looking at it through TF2 glasses but having played more now I don't think it's that bad. Partially that's because Overwatch is so fundamentally different from TF2 in terms of picking characters- yes, in TF2 it would be horrible level design to make so much only be accessible to the more mobile classes, but that's because it only really has two or three classes like that. Take the flank route on the left of the beginning of Volskaya. In TF2, Soldier, Demoman, and maybe Scout with one of his unlocks would be able to cross it, but in Overwatch half the roster can, including supports and tanks.

Another reason why I've largely changed my mind is that, obviously, when I started playing, I was pretty inexperienced, the maps in Overwatch are a lot less straight-forward than the maps in TF2. There are a lot of little routes that I just didn't notice, like the little windows at the top of the room on the left of the first part of Anubis that get you past the second choke, or blinking to the sniper perch on the last point of King's Row as Tracer.

Who is, of course, best girl.



Pictured: Me and a quick play Widowmaker who thought she was safe

Oh yeah also Uniju #1689