There's zero use keeping someone who is known to be bigoted around just bc they haven't done anything wrong Here, all it does is make MW uncomfortable for the people they're bigoted towards

Ah but if they're roleplaying as a polite person how can we possibly be expected to care,,,

I agree.

I think there's a discussion to be had about uhh... scope I guess? I'm OK w/ banning anything, but some stuff really is simple ignorance that can be corrected, it just depends on if people think that's mw's job to do or not (I don't want to)

it's almost certainly ignorance but also we ban kids from mw already so maybe we should keep up that rule

it's almost certainly ignorance but also we ban kids from mw already so maybe we should keep up that rule

The issue is, looking at the person in question's twitter, they've repeatedly boosted tweets equating queer people to pedophiles (which is advocating genocide as pedophiles are considered acceptable to kill). I don't want anyone who believes this on Minus World

This post was last modified: Jun 19, 2022 at 2:49 AM by Spritanium.

We're not gonna change the mind of a person who is committed to being "moderately right of center" or whatever the kids are calling fascism these days, and this isn't the place to try and do it anyway. These people get on the internet specifically to be inflammatory just so they can say "wow bro chill it was just an opinion", I already got my fill of this by 2017 and I think we can have more meaningful discussions with more interesting people if we cut out the riff-raff

wtf happened?

wtf happened?

oh i just saw it nvm yeah that was a helluva cringe unbased thing to say fuck that twitter facist
(sorry for doubleposting)
((i thought some drama had happened on the discord which i cant enter and was trying to figure out what went on didnt thing thered be authentic forum drama))

the invite link is encrypted which i presume is too keep sketchy people flitting in and out of there

the invite link is encrypted which i presume is too keep sketchy people flitting in and out of there

Made a new invite and put it on the Discord thread, it's been a few days and I made the process of using it a little more obnoxious to hopefully deter botting some more.

Generally I think the way to fix people w/ bigoted views (the way that worked for half of us here who were shitty teens once), is specifically *to* immerse them in communities with those people.
Provided they're required to keep things civil (ie, obeying the rules), this is how you make people realise that the group they're bigoted against are just people and that they have things in common etc etc

That being said, you're right that doing this for people who've gone off the deep end is potentially more harmful to the community than it is useful, and is extremely unlikely to work

This post was last modified: Jun 19, 2022 at 5:15 PM by CaptainSuperstition.

Alright, I feel like I just have to throw my hat in the ring here. First of all, I couldn't care less if anyone is gay or trans, in fact, I am totally already aware that you're all human beings like I am, with your needs and desires and dreams and all. I am also someone who acknowledges that every community, every group, every race or ethnicity has a few bad people in it, and this is regardless of whatever they identify as. When someone raises awareness of a bad person that's doing bad things, I am someone who appreciates and also tries to race awareness of the bad, harmful deeds that are being done without generalizing and trying to conclude that because that one person is bad, then the entire community they belong to must also be bad as well. As people who care so much about the LGBTQ community, you should totally be on board to raise awareness of the really bad people that just so happen to identify as part of these communities, while at the same time making it a point and reminding everyone that these people are NOT representative of the community as a whole and that they're simply bad people who just so HAPPEN to identify as gay or trans, and aren't bad BECAUSE they're gay or trans. Like I'm sure we've all noticed this trend of the wider LGBTQ community being tarnished and persecuted because of all these bad apples running around and being exposed, and that you're all being intimidated and marginalized over something that isn't your own fault. That sucks, right? It definitely does, and it definitely doesn't help either to bury your head in the sand and accuse everyone who calls awareness of these deeds as a hateful, bigoted scumbag who just hates gay and trans people in general and wants to kill all of them, like doing this is simply not the way to gain credibility and respect to your cause and you're just reinforcing the mindset of some people that the entire community are a bunch of evil meanies who are out to get them because of their views.

That being said, I really don't think these kind of threads and/or messages trying to intimidate, single-out and witch-hunt someone are the way to go about it. I understand that you're just trying to look out for your own, and I understand that there's a bunch of nasty obnoxious trolls in general and certainly, if you think is someone is beyond any salvation and learning and are just totally off the deep end in general, and you think simply getting rid of that person is the best course of action for the sake of your community, then by all means go for it. But at the same time there's a lot of genuinely pretty misguided, ignorant people out there, and the best thing to do to make sure they learn the error of their ways is simply to treat them with the most respect and understanding, to remind them that you're people like they are too, so they can learn that they were misguided in their prejudicial ways and come to accept you while also avoiding the bad. But this kind of rhetoric in which you accuse these people of being evil scumbags and accuse them of advocating for genocide?? That's just a little yikes, isn't it? Like you're accusing these people of wanting to intimidate and persecute and attack you for who you are and what you believe, while at the same time attacking and intimidating and persecuting them, again, going as far as accusing them of ADVOCATING FOR GENOCIDE??? Jesus. I mean this in the most respectful way I can, but please reconsider your approach on this. I understang being weary on general, having to deal with a lot of shit and persecution on a regular basis and immediately assume the worst of some people because you've been through a whole lot of ill for many years and so you're simply done and don't want to deal with this bullshit anymore, I totally understand that. But, again, I think you should try to remember that we're not all just a bunch of hateful trolls who hate you, some of us are just misguided, who need guidance, who need comprehension, who simply need to learn to know and do better.

Also, I owe you an explanation and an apology. I basically walked myself right into this mess and I should totally have been aware of the consequences for it. It was my mistake to assume everyone would immediately know what I'm about without even fully knowing me. I'm certainly no stranger to have been persecuted and attacked and burned a lot of bridges because of these kind of misunderstanding, and I've made the mistake a lot of times of being slightly paranoid and judgemental myself. It was just a pretty darn foolish thing to do, just going out and making dumb jokes like that because I just wanted to see how people would react and assume they'd see through the joke and wouldn't assume the worst. I promise to correct my mistake from now on. And that's just the thing, what these aforementioned bad people on the community right now is totally denigrate and insult and hurt your community as a whole, because a lot of people see this stuff and immediately assume this is what the entire community is all about and thus everyone in it becomes immediately maligned and suffers because of it because of the generalizations of a lot of naive people. This is deeply wrong and something you should definitely do your best to fight against, like when a woman is caught wrongfully accusing a man of rape and thus the credibility of the entire community of assault victims suffers as a whole. It pains me that your community is suffering because of the deeds of these bad people, like they're not just remorselessly harming their victims, but harming all of you as well, and this is wrong. I deeply apologize if I ever seemed I was going out of my way to contribute to this persecution. I just wanted to be straight like I should have been for the beginning. Thank you.

Thanks for responding honestly and sharing your views, @CaptainSuperstition. You really shouldn't have to defend yourself over someone thinking you might cause problems, but it's useful to hear your side. As far as I know, site staff still agree that you shouldn't be punished when you haven't done anything wrong here. Some of the people most insistent about banning you have chosen to take a break from the community, though Money is still here. I hope this absurd situation hasn't made you dislike Minus World.

i agree that you shouldn't have to defend yourself because of assumptions of how you will act but i do appreciate that you made a lengthy and well thought out post about it. i hope the people who were upset by the call to not instantly throw you out over breaking no rules can eventually calm themselves.

in proper more visible response to the thread, as my replies to the concept were all in discord, i'm realizing: i personally prefer moderation that responds to direct actions of members that affect others. if someone overly negatively affects others in some way within the community itself or spaces adjacent to it, i will be far more inclined to act or approve action. i don't believe acting immediately upon difference of beliefs or potential misunderstandings without any true move to justify such a response having been taken is any better than thought policing.

This post was last modified: Jun 19, 2022 at 5:20 PM by Reeb.

I thought Money was overstepping with the "advocating for genocide" angle, which seems to be the thing being chiefly defended against here, if I'm not misreading. THAT I thought was going too far of an equivocation, but your Twitter, which you linked (people didn't go sussing it out; I clicked it myself because I was curious, though I wasn't the person who really perused it) still exists with you having liked a bunch of content that's harmful or worrisome to the trans people here.

I feel like ample hints were provided before the community started actually exploding. I tried to address it outright in my park thread because I didn't think it was a good look, but I'm not a mod, so I didn't want to be the person that told you to back that shit up; I'm pretty new to Minus World in general and don't know how much ground I can actually cover here without stepping on peoples' toes. Before that, though, Pea read your twitter and asked about you being anti-vax, the joke in the thread got two negative effects applied to it - I feel like the hints were there and I can't help but wonder why it took a ban thread from people getting increasingly uncomfortable for addressing the issue to come to light. If you didn't consider it as an issue, then a lot of people'd be baffled, because the Twitter you linked gave a pretty strong impression that you disliked anything to do with LGBTQ+ people, hence the defensiveness.

Money is extreme, but I don't disagree with her opening post on bigotedness being barred. This isn't a "So much for the tolerant left" situation; if this thread demonstrates anything, it's that majority opinion doesn't matter in the face of what the administrators ultimately decide. If people stick around, it's because the Minus World staff decided they should; people here aren't politically dominant in one direction or another typically. I'm relatively fresh but have been told there've been some people far to the right.

It's the lack of addressment - it's the putting it out there in open air - that made me wary of you and defensive. I, myself, am not trans. I'm not gay, I'm not really anything. I don't even consider myself cishet. I'm "I don't really give much of a crap but I respect other people"; that's probably an actual gender identity somewhere that somebody has a name for, but I don't know it off the top of my head. I still got defensive and nervous because I expected you to be trolling, and while I wanted to engage you on the subject, I'm not really sure how to approach someone and just go "So hey, how 'bout that anti-LGBTQ stuff" without it being a complete out-of-nowhere non-sequitur.

This post was last modified: Jun 19, 2022 at 5:38 PM by CaptainSuperstition.

Thank you. Just once, just for freaking once, I'd like to join a forum and/or community and not have this immediately happen where a bunch of people are suddenly calling for my head and I have to go out and explain myself. I'd just like to be treated like a normal, equal person for once and have some healthy, meaningful discussion without people rushing to judge me because of vague hints about my views. I'd like to not have to walk on eggshells all the time and just be allowed to be myself and be straight and true with others. I also really hope that Money and the others who were calling for my head or telling me to get lost are able to understand my side of things and that we can leave this behind and just be civil. I'm sorry that you thought I was such a monster and I hope things can be better now. I don't want to have enemies of anyone here, and I don't want to drive anyone away, I just want to be able to hang out with you all in peace.

Also, as for what Reeb just said, that is just the thing about a bunch of LGBTQ people, isn't it? There's this bizarre rejection in many circles of people who bring awareness to the bad people among them, immediately burying their heads in the sand and acting totally defensive and refusing to acknowledge it, accusing anyone who does this as hating the community as a whole. Like it doesn't matter if you're white, straight and conservative or gay, trans, homosexual, and liberal. Even if you were the latter, these people will immediately attack you like sharks vying blood if you dared to like one Ben Shapiro tweet. I don't understand why there's not this unanimous agreement that some people inside the community are really bad and awareness to their deeds should totally acknowledged and raised so that they can be dealt with and pay for their crimes, and instead there's this fierce defensiveness and refusal to acknowledge it, which can lead to the false impression that all the community secretly endorses and condones these awful deeds and wants to censor anyone who disagrees, which indeed is what a lot of these naive kids think, that because you refuse their acknowledgment of these awful things and you accuse them of hating everyone in the community for calling them out, you and the entire community must be just as bad!

I knew what I was getting into when I first joined, and I made quite a few stupid mistakes and should have been more clear and controlled myself a little more, I understand that, and again, I hope it's all clear now and we can just move on like this never happened. I don't think it ever really had to happen.

This post was last modified: Jun 19, 2022 at 6:31 PM by Reeb.

Also, as for what Reeb just said, that is just the thing about a bunch of LGBTQ people, isn't it? There's this bizarre rejection in many circles of people who bring awareness to the bad people among them, immediately burying their heads in the sand and acting totally defensive and refusing to acknowledge it, accusing anyone who does this as hating the community as a whole. Like it doesn't matter if you're white, straight and conservative or gay, trans, homosexual, and liberal. Even if you were the latter, these people will immediately attack you like sharks vying blood if you dared to like one Ben Shapiro tweet. I don't understand why there's not this unanimous agreement that some people inside the community are really bad and awareness to their deeds should totally acknowledged and raised so that they can be dealt with and pay for their crimes, and instead there's this fierce defensiveness and refusal to acknowledge it, which can lead to the false impression that all the community secretly endorses and condones these awful deeds and wants to censor anyone who disagrees, which indeed is what a lot of these naive kids think, that because you refuse their acknowledgment of these awful things and you accuse them of hating everyone in the community for calling them out, you and the entire community must be just as bad!

I think where you're going south here is assuming that no one in this community has ever had to deal with a bad actor who was in that sphere. They have. I barely know half the history of this place and I know the members have had some fucked up shit go on.

The reason that people get defensive, inquisitive, and accusatory isn't because they're afraid of you bringing to light the bad actors in their community. First of all, this is Minus World, and if you don't know the gist of Minus World, it's that people get by being However They Might Be. That bit where I said the majority's decision doesn't matter because what the admins say go? I meant that wholeheartedly. That wasn't some bitter "Rage against the admins" thing. To be clear: I like the admins here. I shoot the shit with them about dumb stuff like gacha games. I still disagree with their stances sometimes, and being able to disagree with peoples' stances is a fundamental thing in Minus World.

So where does that differ and why are people getting defensive? Well, firstly, because people don't always agree with the admins and wish they'd take more active action. Secondly:

They're afraid that you're going to target them and do what Spritanium addressed earlier, aka jab at them and then act like it didn't happen or find fuel to use against them, take private things and dump them elsewhere, that kind of shit. I can definitively say most people here that're LGBTQ+ have seen some Fucked Up Shit from within and without their community, and they're responding to something entirely different pre-emptively because they already deal with enough and assume the worst because of prior mistreatment.

You're not going to bring to light bad actors in the Minus World community. Anyone that's here who's considered extreme or problematic is already considered that. Anyone that's considered annoying is already considered that. These people fall under the same umbrella of universal tolerance and it's why the ban thread is vanishingly small. What you can get away with here is markedly permissive, and it's that exact permissiveness that likely has people worried.

I'm sorry but a lot of your twitter goes far beyond "raising awareness of bad people" (which just so you know, the queer community is more than capable of doing without it turning into a moral panic against queerness in general) into "rejecting the identity and personhood of queer people". If you're genuine in what you say that's at least somewhat better than I thought at least. Still, I'll probably never be "comfortable" with you around but I've exhausted the levels of care that I have about the subject so whatever i guess

I'll also say it's a bit 🤔 that, as much as you claim to only be trying to "bring attention to bad people" your twitter p much entirely focuses on marginalized people rather than people who hold much more power in society

This post was last modified: Jun 19, 2022 at 6:43 PM by CaptainSuperstition.

Well, I'm sorry, Money, but I've checked through my Twitter likes and I don't see a lot of truly awful harassment tweets like you say, or anything about rejecting queer identity/humanity as a whole. I've only regularly liked a couple tweets that hint awareness at stuff like queer-identifying people being ousted as pedophiles and arrested for it, as well as a bunch of tweet agreeing that children shouldn't be exposed to people dancing while barely clothed in front of them or exposed to porn in general or asked personal sexual questions, and that they shouldn't be given things like hormones or puberty suppressants that would irreparably harm them, or have their genitals cut off while they're young. Like these are just a lot of genuinely concerned people that are simply calling out the harming of these children by bad actors in the community and is something that any decent person, including any decent gay/queer person, should and has repeatedly called out. A lot of them even agree that pointing this out is not harassment against the queer community in general and shouldn't be interpreted as such, so I'm not sure how you spin that into saying these people are bigots and that I'm a bigot for understanding and considering their concerns. And that line about maraginalized and much more powerful people I don't really understand either, like where does that come from? No offense but it seems you're just making up problems that aren't really there at this point.

But it's alright, I'm done arguing about this now. I'm sorry you think you'll never be "comfortable" with me, but I know better than to try to change your mind or anything. If that's how you feel, that's how you feel, and that's totally fair. I just wanted to honestly and maturely explain my side and see if things could be better with you and the others who were calling for me to be banned, and I think I did just that and we can just barely tolerate each other from now, so that's fair enough.