Regarding recent events (not that one)

#1
Draku
Specifically to Drei's recent post concerning potential grooming, the staff believes a number of things need to be said. An accusation this serious holds a LOT of weight -- publicly stating that someone has engaged in such a terrible act is not something to be said lightly, so the user in question will have their name withheld, as the claims made, while a reasonable concern given the conjecture provided by Drei, are seemingly just that: of conjecture. If further evidence comes to light, action will be taken extremely swiftly and everyone here will absolutely know what happened, but not a second sooner, and I hold the staff as a whole to not disclose any details and potentially mar the reputation of the member in question with no proof at hand.

This course of action may be seen as some as protecting a potential groomer, which is an understandable view. However, the entire moderation staff has reviewed the claim individually and discussed the matter with Drei himself, and at this time we simply cannot say that there is enough there to act upon or even do much more than keep an eye on potential developments.

The staff as a whole do not want to throw anyone's reputation under the bus for what is, at the moment, largely an assumption made by a member. This is not to underplay the gravity of even an inkling of a potential groomer being at hand, quite the contrary. If the staff were to take action and publicly out someone for an unsubstantiated claim of this variety, it opens the floodgates for any members to simply discredit anyone they dislike by publicly creating controversy surrounding them with no solid ground. And in an environment where that is possible, such claims will lose their merit as a whole, even if they wind up true in the end. Thus, the malicious party wins out, in a boy who cried wolf type scenario; while the people who have had claims made against them are forever haunted by "wasn't that person a pedophile?" and other such potential falsities. It's not good for anyone.

I implore anyone who is concerned about the actions of any members here to submit such serious reports in private to the staff. Even if it is just a suspicion (Drei's case was as such, which is fine, that was not the issue) it will be considered seriously. The problem is that trying to call attention to a matter like this in public, especially if you add in that it's something you've withheld for years, comes across as somewhat of a stunt. If you are holding onto such a dire issue until it benefits you in a public context, be it the momentum of a discussion, then it suddenly doesn't seem like it was that pressing to you.

Thus, any public announcements of such varieties going forward will be heavily looked down upon and potentially result in moderative action. That is not to say that whatever is said will not be investigated and considered, far from it if the rest of this post did not make it clear, but members should not be able to throw around such heavy ammunition without any regulation and it seems like many who have stepped forward to voice concerns with staff members agree with this notion.

Would have been posted earlier but I wanted to make sure there was indeed a staff consensus on the matter.
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#2
Stirling
I have no issue with the decisions made in what reasoning is present. I think there's still valid reasoning to act still, but I more importantly I do think it needs to be said that I am in contrast (and not alone) to this being a stunt. I think this was a missing staircase problem and that I wasn't at all holding onto this.
Get it by your own hands.

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#3
Fun With Despair
(Jan 22, 2021 at 12:43 AM)Stirling Wrote: I have no issue with the decisions made in what reasoning is present. I think there's still valid reasoning to act still, but I more importantly I do think it needs to be said that I am in contrast (and not alone) to this being a stunt. I think this was a missing staircase problem and that I wasn't at all holding onto this.
If it wasn't a stunt you would have just brought it up to staff in private. As it stands, you have done something in extremely poor taste by publicly vagueposting such an important accusation and potentially started a game of paranoia in which no member can feel comfortable as they have no idea whether or not the rest of the community secretly thinks they're a pedophile or not.

If this was an actual legitimate issue you wished to raise, you would have done it in a mature way rather than grandstanding. There is no excuse for your immaturity and the vast, VAST majority of the MW discord thinks that the way you handled this issue is bordering on pathetic.

Once again this is an issue of how you conduct yourself rather than your principles or intent, a lesson you seem extremely keen on refusing to learn.
#4
Stirling
I am not alone in understanding this was "swept under the rug" when it was brought up before. Yes, I had a new issue and I should've just reported it. You should feel worried because there's no trust that you guys will actually act on these topics because you didn't before and members left over that lack of action.
Get it by your own hands.

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#5
Shygul
Drei what the fuck are you talking about
#6
Pea
i misread that as stir being the groomer i'm sorry
#7
Fun With Despair
(Jan 22, 2021 at 1:45 AM)Stirling Wrote: I am not alone in understanding this was "swept under the rug" when it was brought up before. Yes, I had a new issue and I should've just reported it. You should feel worried because there's no trust that you guys will actually act on these topics because you didn't before and members left over that lack of action.
To be honest, your accusation even in private was lacking in substantial evidence outside of what basically amounts to conjecture. It is true that not everything is acted on, but banning someone over essentially pointing a finger with no concrete evidence or testimony from a victim or witness to support the claim is extremely stupid and sets a dangerous precedent.

Especially considering how many times, on-record, you yourself have spoken extensively in private to minors on Minus World such as Microsoi Sam. Should someone actually desire it, they could easily make the exact same accusation against you as well with similar amounts of evidence.

Now, I obviously do not believe that to be the case, but you could be starting a dangerous game here if you genuinely believe that public vague callouts based on conjecture are in any way a good idea.

Once again, the problem is not with your report but with the way you carried out this whole debacle and decided to start a witch hunt before even actually coming out with your claim to staff.
#8
Stirling
(Jan 22, 2021 at 2:28 AM)Fun With Despair Wrote:
(Jan 22, 2021 at 1:45 AM)Stirling Wrote: I am not alone in understanding this was "swept under the rug" when it was brought up before. Yes, I had a new issue and I should've just reported it. You should feel worried because there's no trust that you guys will actually act on these topics because you didn't before and members left over that lack of action.
To be honest, your accusation even in private was lacking in substantial evidence outside of what basically amounts to conjecture. It is true that not everything is acted on, but banning someone over essentially pointing a finger with no concrete evidence or testimony from a victim or witness to support the claim is extremely stupid and sets a dangerous precedent.

Especially considering how many times, on-record, you yourself have spoken extensively in private to minors on Minus World such as Microsoi Sam. Should someone actually desire it, they could easily make the exact same accusation against you as well with similar amounts of evidence.

Now, I obviously do not believe that to be the case, but you could be starting a dangerous game here if you genuinely believe that public vague callouts based on conjecture are in any way a good idea.

Once again, the problem is not with your report but with the way you carried out this whole debacle and decided to start a witch hunt before even actually coming out with your claim to staff.
The grooming, yes, it was conjecture that I was not alone in feeling. I conceded to your own experiences over mine as being more valid of a view on the situation. That isn't what I mean by not acting.

Every staff member except Draku and Spritey should have been very aware of the fact that a member, in my eyes, has pedophilic sexual urges they specifically seek to fulfill with shotacon porn. It was admitted by this member they consume this porn and has directly led to other members leaving before. This is what I mean by not acting. You didn't act before when this came up and we had underage members on the forum and discord then. In the recent discussion, this fact is relevant, especially when their submission of vote was allow all ages. It's not pathetic that I brought this up publicly, when it should be a public concern, but that others who very well knew about this acted like they didn't know what I was referencing.

Edit: It also is terribly obvious that if you're allowing someone that members can reasonably, and honestly, most people in the world would, consider having pedophilic urges, that you must have a hard 18+ rule.
Get it by your own hands.

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#9
Yoshin
Since it is so extremely obvious it is me, I deserve some right as to what your full evidence is and your reasonings. I know you are banned but you have both my discord accounts and share a server with me. Just know that after that I am never communicating with you again.


If this post breaks any rules I will take whatever punishment is needed.
#10
Mario
I apologize for breaking the leaving contract, but this is a really horrendous situation.

This thread is a fucking disgrace. I have never been more disappointed with the staff of a community. You're mad at stir's post in the other thread for no other reason than it makes you look bad, so you make this one to call him out specifically, muddy the waters, and bait him to provide more details so you can ban him over it. Stir was keeping this as confidential as he could while highlighting there is a major problem here that does call into question the like of 'well if something bad happened trust us we'd handle it'.

In doing so you have severed all trust that you guys will handle any kind of reasonable accusation with any degree of tact. You've essentially made the climate here- don't tell us about problems in the community, we'll ignore you, and if you speak public about it, we'll shame you and ban you.

If you want a culture where people feel like they can trust the moderators to bring these kinds of issues to them so they can be handled appropriately, you need to protected the accuser just as much as the accused.

I get it, some of you loathe stir, and maybe this _is_ some extra special treatment because it's him, but it certainly sets a terrible precedent for anything else going forward.


(Jan 22, 2021 at 2:59 PM)Yoshin Wrote: Since it is so extremely obvious it is me, I deserve some right as to what your full evidence is and your reasonings. I know you are banned but you have both my discord accounts and share a server with me. Just know that after that I am never communicating with you again.


If this post breaks any rules I will take whatever punishment is needed.

You absolutely don't deserve to know. If it's something you're guilty of, knowing how to hide it better since you got caught is not good for anyone!
#11
Nabber
what are you talking about. "stir was keeping this as confidential as he could"? the staff told him not to publicly out anyone and he immediately did that. he wasn't banned for reporting to the staff
#12
Mario
(Jan 22, 2021 at 3:31 PM)Nabber Wrote: what are you talking about. "stir was keeping this as confidential as he could"? the staff told him not to publicly out anyone and he immediately did that. he wasn't banned for reporting to the staff

He effectively was when the staff make a big callout post for HIM for his comments in the other thread! Obviously he'd want to defend his reasoning out in public when it's a fucking essay from Draku about how Stir acted totally inappropriate in that thread
#13
Yrrzy
(Jan 22, 2021 at 3:26 PM)Mario Wrote: I apologize for breaking the leaving contract, but this is a really horrendous situation.

This thread is a fucking disgrace. I have never been more disappointed with the staff of a community. You're mad at stir's post in the other thread for no other reason than it makes you look bad, so you make this one to call him out specifically, muddy the waters, and bait him to provide more details so you can ban him over it. Stir was keeping this as confidential as he could while highlighting there is a major problem here that does call into question the like of 'well if something bad happened trust us we'd handle it'.

In doing so you have severed all trust that you guys will handle any kind of reasonable accusation with any degree of tact. You've essentially made the climate here- don't tell us about problems in the community, we'll ignore you, and if you speak public about it, we'll shame you and ban you.

If you want a culture where people feel like they can trust the moderators to bring these kinds of issues to them so they can be handled appropriately, you need to protected the accuser just as much as the accused.

I get it, some of you loathe stir, and maybe this _is_ some extra special treatment because it's him, but it certainly sets a terrible precedent for anything else going forward.

All a vague public accusation does is poison the well and generate distrust.

If the goal was confidentiality, why make the *existence* of the accusation public without actually reporting it?
If the goal was being heard on the issue, why not contact staff about it?

His claims of having told staff previously amounted to nothing more than expressing discomfort with said member, which was met with agreement.

His accusation was a simple, verifiably false "what if", regarding someone who is an adult.
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#14
Mario
The distrust of the staff with handling this was already there (and now exacerbated by you guys and this thread!), and it's a detail that's actually pretty important to bring up when the argument for allowing underage members is "trust us, we'd handle things if things got weird"
#15
Nabber
stir took a suspicion, that should have been reported to the staff in private, and made it into a public issue. he was not banned for that, but the community deserved some follow up after a member went and said "i have reason to believe someone here is a groomer". draku already said it very reasonably

Quote: Even if it is just a suspicion (Drei's case was as such, which is fine, that was not the issue) it will be considered seriously. The problem is that trying to call attention to a matter like this in public, especially if you add in that it's something you've withheld for years, comes across as somewhat of a stunt. If you are holding onto such a dire issue until it benefits you in a public context, be it the momentum of a discussion, then it suddenly doesn't seem like it was that pressing to you.

he was not banned for bringing up an issue. he was banned for doing it in an extremely irresponsible manner
#16
Mario
stir reported it to the staff in private when they asked in that thread and it wasn't brought up again.

the staff made it public again with this thread
#17
Zelma
I'm here for two reasons.
1. ) To add my two cents
2.) Warn SP if he posts and deletes again I'm making another comic
#18
Yrrzy
I'd rather not have the alternative where someone makes a public accusation and report and then we don't explain whats being done about it.

If anyone thinks Drei was banned for anything other than his conduct tho, I need to be clear that that's false.
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#19
Mario
(Jan 22, 2021 at 3:50 PM)Yrrzy Wrote: I'd rather not have the alternative where someone makes a public accusation and report and then we don't explain whats being done about it.

If anyone thinks Drei was banned for anything other than his conduct tho, I need to be clear that that's false.

I imagine you can explain what's being done about it without calling out the one who made the accusation.

But it's just stir and he's mean so whatever right? Surely this sets no clear precedence for how you guys would treat any other accusation.
#20
Mario
you can't both say you're taking it seriously while also accusing stir of the accusation being a stunt

it's the same kind of shit when people are like 'why didnt you just report it to the police'- idk maybe there's some reason to think you shouldn't trust the people who handle the reports. I certainly see it here

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