i would agree that the 16 thing would be unnecessary if not for KG
because i don't think there should be a big barrier of entry to that and that's what most people of that agegroup would be joining for, as fwd has pointed out more than once

i will say that random mfgg members choosing to stroll in because they wanted to that might happen as a result of having that leniency for a different reason is fine to me too, because i remember being that age (and younger tbh), choosing to go to communities that largely featured people older than myself, and preferring the discussion and energy in those places. no one explicitly makes that shit weird until someone is actively creepy about it and if that happens that person is the issue not the younger one. unless the person who's 16 is acting like they're goddamn 8 or something (which i have seen happen elsewhere, even recently) in which case yes throw them out of a window because they're mentally immature even for their own agegroup.

idk despite mfan obviously being underage for a decent while for example i never got some weird energy around him that made him actually seem like he was any lesser than most people here and would have never even realized he was underage if not for him talking about his stepmom changing the locks on his handcuffs. i just don't think about the age of whoever i'm talking through via an online barrier unless THEY call attention to it through their actions. however he does still need to watch nanoha a's

yeah those are some good points

i like anime so i really don't need more ammo that people can use to call me a pedo

This post was last modified: Jan 20, 2021 at 2:32 AM by Fun With Despair.

regarding KG I think it's honestly easier to just keep the forums 16+ in that case and make the discord 18+.

my reasoning is largely that KG nowadays usually has its own servers made for easier conversation regarding the game and its various points of talking, and also its way less weird to have minors on a relatively slow paced forum with little NSFW discussion outside of clearly tagged threads and zelma's posts.

If the big concern regarding age is discomfort with venting and even talking in general around minors, I think it's way easier to manage that on the forums where most people don't talk about those things anyway and you can actually block people properly.

If some 16 year old joins KG, well usually the worst thing that happens there is someone takes a piss on the knives, and hosts can easily steer minors away from NSFW activities in the game anyway. if the forums were 16+ and the discord was 18+ then it pretty much allows whoever to join shit like KG without being exposed to any NSFW content or discussions in the faster paced discord.

Many of the complaints seem to be specifically regarding the discord, and I do agree its weirder to have minors there. I think as a secondary solution this shouldn't be too weird at all.

regarding KG I think it's honestly easier to just keep the forums 16+ in that case and make the discord 18+.

my reasoning is largely that KG nowadays usually has its own servers made for easier conversation regarding the game and its various points of talking, and also its way less weird to have minors on a relatively slow paced forum with little NSFW discussion outside of clearly tagged threads and zelma's posts.

If the big concern regarding age is discomfort with venting and even talking in general around minors, I think it's way easier to manage that on the forums where most people don't talk about those things anyway and you can actually block people properly.

If some 16 year old joins KG, well usually the worst thing that happens there is someone takes a piss on the knives, and hosts can easily steer minors away from NSFW activities in the game anyway. if the forums were 16+ and the discord was 18+ then it pretty much allows whoever to join shit like KG without being exposed to any NSFW content or discussions in the faster paced discord.

Many of the complaints seem to be specifically regarding the discord, and I do agree its weirder to have minors there. I think as a secondary solution this shouldn't be too weird at all.

works for me

regarding KG I think it's honestly easier to just keep the forums 16+ in that case and make the discord 18+.

my reasoning is largely that KG nowadays usually has its own servers made for easier conversation regarding the game and its various points of talking, and also its way less weird to have minors on a relatively slow paced forum with little NSFW discussion outside of clearly tagged threads and zelma's posts.

If the big concern regarding age is discomfort with venting and even talking in general around minors, I think it's way easier to manage that on the forums where most people don't talk about those things anyway and you can actually block people properly.

If some 16 year old joins KG, well usually the worst thing that happens there is someone takes a piss on the knives, and hosts can easily steer minors away from NSFW activities in the game anyway. if the forums were 16+ and the discord was 18+ then it pretty much allows whoever to join shit like KG without being exposed to any NSFW content or discussions in the faster paced discord.

Many of the complaints seem to be specifically regarding the discord, and I do agree its weirder to have minors there. I think as a secondary solution this shouldn't be too weird at all.

works for me

I think hypothetically this also kind of fixes the Sooshy Situation where rather than just telling someone they have to leave if they join, they at least have the forums so that they can kind of settle in until they can join the discord if they really really want to stick around for some reason

i would agree that the 16 thing would be unnecessary if not for KG
because i don't think there should be a big barrier of entry to that and that's what most people of that agegroup would be joining for, as fwd has pointed out more than once

I don't agree with this.

For one, we aren't Killing Game World. Killing Game is part of the community, it is not the community. Want in? Join the community. Too young? Too bad. Try again later. Note that we will, in theory, already do this for sub 16s, assuming that any sub16s have ever wanted to join.

For two, there are also other places that have run their own Killing Games. Mario Boards and MFGG I'm pretty sure have both run them. I don't know how often they run them, I'll concede that.

For three, I don't know why you've phrased it as "most people under 18 will be joining for killing game", the reality is that even 18+ new members are more than likely joining for Killing Game. That's just how we've gotten most of our new members. I don't think there's anything about Killing Game that attracts 16-18 year olds in particular, so I don't understand why we're worried about missing out on so many great new members. Why are all the "good members" 16-18 year olds? Why aren't we also attracting "good members" that are 18+? We could also argue that allowing 16 year olds turns off some potential 18+ members. Why must we accomodate the 16 year olds above all else? I don't understand the logic here.

And this isn't a permanent ban. While we're focusing on 16 year olds, it's just as possible we have to reject someone for being 17, 18 in a few months. It's not always even going to be 2 full years.

i will say that random mfgg members choosing to stroll in because they wanted to that might happen as a result of having that leniency for a different reason is fine to me too, because i remember being that age (and younger tbh), choosing to go to communities that largely featured people older than myself, and preferring the discussion and energy in those places.

I remember this too. And it wasn't until I was older that I realised how utterly fucked it was. I had an awful lot of implicit trust in these older people purely for the fact of being "oldbies" and shit. Just because it "didn't affect me" or "I turned out fine" doesn't make it okay. It's a minefield and someone's gonna get burned by it one day.

no one explicitly makes that shit weird until someone is actively creepy about it and if that happens that person is the issue not the younger one.

It's not like we're blaming young people for joining. Even if we disallow sub18s and one manages to fall through the cracks somehow, it's still the person who's being creepy that's at fault and not the underage guy for "breaking the rules". Disallowing under 18s doesn't change anything here. But think for a second here, which is more beneficial to the hypothetical child being creeped on: Removing the creeper after the creeping has taken place, or preventing it from happening in the first place by removing them from an adults-only zone?

To provide factual information without siding with anyone in this discussion: Marioboards generally averages one KG per year.

did everyone forget about the kid who was like 12 and joined, came back a year or two, said they were trans and their parent was going to disown them

did everyone forget about the kid who was like 12 and joined, came back a year or two, said they were trans and their parent was going to disown them

no but i also remember banning them

Why aren't we also attracting "good members" that are 18+?

threads like this one

did everyone forget about the kid who was like 12 and joined, came back a year or two, said they were trans and their parent was going to disown them

I remember that of course. If this is about my theoretical sub 16s, I was talking about kg specifically, as the conversation has shifted a little to "do we allow under 18s to participate in the forums (and thus kg)" and my opinion is still no. I don't remember if they wanted to join a killing game, they may have.

Why aren't we also attracting "good members" that are 18+?

threads like this one

Yes funny jokes, but please appreciate for one second what you're implying here. Presumably you are implying that mature people don't appreciate threads like these and so we put them off. Does that also not apply to the 16+s? A bit creepy for a community of adults to be looking specifically for children who aren't yet fully mature enough to appreciate how bad the community is, don't you think?

For the record I don't believe this is what Aidan is in any way implying, he was just making a joke. It just gave me the opportunity to add a little to my point.

For one, we aren't Killing Game World. Killing Game is part of the community, it is not the community. Want in? Join the community. Too young? Too bad. Try again later. Note that we will, in theory, already do this for sub 16s, assuming that any sub16s have ever wanted to join.

For two, there are also other places that have run their own Killing Games. Mario Boards and MFGG I'm pretty sure have both run them. I don't know how often they run them, I'll concede that.

For three, I don't know why you've phrased it as "most people under 18 will be joining for killing game", the reality is that even 18+ new members are more than likely joining for Killing Game. That's just how we've gotten most of our new members. I don't think there's anything about Killing Game that attracts 16-18 year olds in particular, so I don't understand why we're worried about missing out on so many great new members. Why are all the "good members" 16-18 year olds? Why aren't we also attracting "good members" that are 18+? We could also argue that allowing 16 year olds turns off some potential 18+ members. Why must we accomodate the 16 year olds above all else? I don't understand the logic here.

And this isn't a permanent ban. While we're focusing on 16 year olds, it's just as possible we have to reject someone for being 17, 18 in a few months. It's not always even going to be 2 full years.

allowing forum access for 16-18 due to the fact that there is a standalone KG discord sounds fine to me. lot less touchy subjects at hand on the forum, big NSFW disclaimers already on any questionable content, and access to kg. other sites barely run killing games, mw is the big hub for them, especially FWD's huge ones. we've gained lots of quality members from kg, i see no reason to look down on it as a source of joining. they can wait to join the discord proper, i think the forum itself offers many things that people can get interested in outside of it as well that people will be interested in if they join for kg. has happened in the past many times. sometimes people join exclusively for kg. but they wouldn't be participating in the discord much anyways so null issue.

why are you nitpicking that phrasing so much? yes, saying both most new members will be joining for kg and that most new 16-18 members will be joining for kg are both true statements. one does not nullify the other, in fact they both support each other as facts.

I remember this too. And it wasn't until I was older that I realised how utterly fucked it was. I had an awful lot of implicit trust in these older people purely for the fact of being "oldbies" and shit. Just because it "didn't affect me" or "I turned out fine" doesn't make it okay. It's a minefield and someone's gonna get burned by it one day.

so you admit nothing happened to you and would probably not happen here, but it could happen so we must ban it outright, even if it's just forum access? since when is mw a den of dangerous individuals?

It's not like we're blaming young people for joining. Even if we disallow sub18s and one manages to fall through the cracks somehow, it's still the person who's being creepy that's at fault and not the underage guy for "breaking the rules". Disallowing under 18s doesn't change anything here. But think for a second here, which is more beneficial to the hypothetical child being creeped on: Removing the creeper after the creeping has taken place, or preventing it from happening in the first place by removing them from an adults-only zone?

again: who in the shit is creeping on children on mw? who is this theoretical boogeyman member that is still around today? would they somehow be able to take advantage of someone at age 16, but at age 18 that person's brain develops an anti-creeper field that stops all issues? that's not how anything works.

you can prevent danger more effectively, in ALL cases, by stopping someone from doing anything, but does that actually help the person in question? or does it limit them for no reason other than a theoretical scare? i could get in a car crash. better not use a car or ride in one, that would ensure it never happens to me.

we've gained lots of quality members from kg, i see no reason to look down on it as a source of joining.

Just for the record, I don't at all.

why are you nitpicking that phrasing so much? yes, saying both most new members will be joining for kg and that most new 16-18 members will be joining for kg are both true statements. one does not nullify the other, in fact they both support each other as facts.

Because I don't understand the desire to have 16+ year olds so much that we're trying to make concessions around them. I don't understand what is effectively "...but we want to allow 16 year olds in Killing Games!", why do you want that, specifically? It sounds to me like you think that the only people (or most people at least) that are going to join are going to join killing game are <18. I don't think that's the case, and if it is the case then I think we should stop advertising it to children and start advertising it in places that adults actually go.

so you admit nothing happened to you and would probably not happen here, but it could happen so we must ban it outright, even if it's just forum access? since when is mw a den of dangerous individuals?

Nothing happened to me and it will probably not happen here. Therefore it's completely okay for me to use my terrible password that I use to log in to Minus World as my bank password. No wait that's terrible advice. We need to recognise that things are bad before they happen rather than waiting until they become an issue. This isn't some completely alien thing that just plain doesn't ever happen either. In fact, grooming has been a large issue in some gaming communities recently. Pretending it can't happen here doesn't make it that it won't happen here.

again: who in the shit is creeping on children on mw? who is this theoretical boogeyman member that is still around today? would they somehow be able to take advantage of someone at age 16, but at age 18 that person's brain develops an anti-creeper field that stops all issues? that's not how anything works.

Lets not pretend that minus world is the only 18+ venue available. For better or worse, societal norms dictate that 18 is the age of adulthood. As someone becomes 18, they are exposed to a lot more situations and areas that are typically adult friendly, where adults are likely to talk to them candidly rather than as a child. Workplaces, bars, etc. Lets say we have 16 year olds join. For some of those 16 year olds, their only exposure to adults speaking candidly to them is going to be through Minus World, as they don't have any other option. And again, I don't think that Minus World is a good influence. The least we can do is to abide by societal norms and give these people a chance to experience other adults first hand, which hopefully gives them the experience required to determine whether a relationship is healthy. If that arugment doesn't persuade you then consider this: why are you setting the arbitrary limit at 16? A 15 year old about to turn 16 doesn't magically become a mature individual overnight either. There just needs to be a boundary, and while the 16 limit is arbitrary (as far as I know at least), the 18 limit as at least codified as the defintion of an adult.

This post was last modified: Jan 20, 2021 at 2:27 PM by Draku.

Because I don't understand the desire to have 16+ year olds so much that we're trying to make concessions around them. I don't understand what is effectively "...but we want to allow 16 year olds in Killing Games!", why do you want that, specifically? It sounds to me like you think that the only people (or most people at least) that are going to join are going to join killing game are <18. I don't think that's the case, and if it is the case then I think we should stop advertising it to children and start advertising it in places that adults actually go.

It's being called attention to because as FWD has pointed out, multiple 16-year olds, in decent numbers given our active userbase count, have joined specifically because of KG and no one gave a shit at those times. There is nothing about how "the only people" that will join are in that 16-18 range, it's that a decent amount of people who have joined as a result of them in the past to participate were in that range, so it's a real demographic. So yes, I would like to accommodate people who simply want to join in on a KG and potentially stick with the community afterwards. If we lock the Discord to 18+ only, they can wait to join that and stick around the forums in the meantime, which are even less of a potential grooming-grounds than our Discord is. Nothing at all about how they're the ONLY people who will join for them, just that blockading them seems bonkers to me. If there were more active KG venues I would say yeah, they could probably just play on those, but MW KGs are a very different beast compared to even the other KGs run elsewhere on top of the frequency issue.

Nothing happened to me and it will probably not happen here. Therefore it's completely okay for me to use my terrible password that I use to log in to Minus World as my bank password. No wait that's terrible advice. We need to recognise that things are bad before they happen rather than waiting until they become an issue. This isn't some completely alien thing that just plain doesn't ever happen either. In fact, grooming has been a large issue in some gaming communities recently. Pretending it can't happen here doesn't make it that it won't happen here.

Hence why I'm conceding that the Discord could be a potential issue, even though I really don't think any of our members would go to such lows. A forum is a safer zone for individuals supposedly at risk. I still think an entirely preventative mindset is too precautions.

Lets not pretend that minus world is the only 18+ venue available. For better or worse, societal norms dictate that 18 is the age of adulthood. As someone becomes 18, they are exposed to a lot more situations and areas that are typically adult friendly, where adults are likely to talk to them candidly rather than as a child. Workplaces, bars, etc. Lets say we have 16 year olds join. For some of those 16 year olds, their only exposure to adults speaking candidly to them is going to be through Minus World, as they don't have any other option. And again, I don't think that Minus World is a good influence. The least we can do is to abide by societal norms and give these people a chance to experience other adults first hand, which hopefully gives them the experience required to determine whether a relationship is healthy. If that arugment doesn't persuade you then consider this: why are you setting the arbitrary limit at 16? A 15 year old about to turn 16 doesn't magically become a mature individual overnight either. There just needs to be a boundary, and while the 16 limit is arbitrary (as far as I know at least), the 18 limit as at least codified as the defintion of an adult.

A fair point on the adult interactions, though I will say the internet has made for lots and lots of of opportunities for one to encounter candid adults at random. As for the arbitrary 16 limit: I understand the hypocrisy in calling out the whole 18 thing as an arbitrary barrier by picking a different goalpost, but the thing is that we have had actual 16 year olds try to join and generally don't encounter members younger than that, so it's the data there that winds up used. We haven't really had many, say, 14-15 year olds clamoring to get in in decent quantities to my knowledge. Plus, 16 is used as an "adult-esque" barrier in some other contexts, and I think it's a little more reasonably around the time people have real-world responsibilities allowed to them, such as driving a car as well as limited working opportunities becoming accessible.

Every argument on MW is hilarious because we just talk in circles

There's a poll. Just do what the results say

Like seriously is this community the reason why my heart races when I have to decide between Chili's and Applebee's?? Another reason why we shouldn't allow anyone under 25

The harder you freak out about potentially talking to minors, the more suspicious you look, you know

Hot take but I'm pretty sure it's more suspicious to emphatically make the case for hanging out with high schoolers. It's very very very (very) weird that people apparently want to do it this badly. Why is your thirst for sophomores so great that you can't wait a couple years for them to become legal adults before talking about video games with them

Weird internet nerds: get in loser, we're gonna emotionally cripple some teens

Me: wtf that sounds awful

Weird internet nerds: hmmmMmMM m'robot doth protest too much

Hot take but I'm pretty sure it's more suspicious to emphatically make the case for hanging out with high schoolers. It's very very very (very) weird that people apparently want to do it this badly.

nobody said that